Debate Guide: Pedophilia is unnatural: Difference between revisions

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:''"Pedophilia is sick and unnatural and WRONG!"''
<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Pedophilia is sick, <u>unnatural</u> and just plain wrong!'''''</font></blockquote>
[[File:Clergy.jpg|thumb|Even though [[Debate Guide: Religious arguments|most religions do not condemn pedophilia]], many religious people are taught that it is sinful, with the post hoc reasoning that it is "unnatural"]]Pedophilia is not unnatural. [[Research: Prevalence|Hebephilia]], in particular, is probably "normative". But let's first address the central fallacy of the argument from nature.


You seem to believe that something is wrong because it is unnatural (which is not the case anyway). This is not necessarily so. Some of the most useful ideas would appear to have no grounding in nature. [[Richard Green]] rightly asks us to problematise [[homosexuality]] if indeed unnatural equals wrong.
The opponent appears to believe that something is wrong simply because it is "unnatural". But, hold on. We do not dispute the morality of chemotherapy, HIV drugs, the motorcar or modern agriculture, all of which are the products of industry. Instead, our civilization is dependent upon them. If we are to assert that something, by not serving the immediate interests of nature is ''less moral'', not only would we be able to justify infanticide, but as skeptical scientists like [[Richard Green]] might remind us, we would also have to condemn [[homosexuality]].<ref>[http://www.sexual-offender-treatment.org/2-2010_01.html SOT: Green Letter]</ref> Yet, we celebrate gays and their culture in western society with an annual Pride Festival, and condemn the slaying of other people's children.


Evidence suggests that humans and close relatives have a historical tendency towards relationships between mature and developing individuals. See [[Research: Intergenerational Sexual Behaviors in Animals|Intergenerational Sexual Behaviors in Animals]], [[Research: Nonwestern Intergenerational Relationships|Nonwestern Intergenerational Relationships]] and [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History|Intergenerational Relationships in History]].
Evidence suggests that humans and close animal relatives have a historical tendency towards relationships (including sexuality) between mature and developing individuals. See, for example, [[Research: Intergenerational Sexual Behaviors in Animals|Intergenerational Sexual Behaviors in Animals]], [[Research: Nonwestern Intergenerational Relationships|Nonwestern Intergenerational Relationships]] and [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History|Intergenerational Relationships in History]].


:''"Assuming that the average child begins puberty at fourteen years, the vast majority of preteens would be prepubescent. Sexual attraction also requires either masculine or feminine secondary sexual characteristics and therefore, a preteen child would be as sexually attractive as a broom or pot plant."'' (actual argument from Condraz23 on IIDB)
<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Assuming that the average child begins puberty at fourteen years, the vast majority of preteens would be prepubescent. Sexual attraction also requires either masculine or feminine secondary sexual characteristics and therefore, <u>a preteen child would be as sexually attractive as a broom or pot plant.</u>'''''</font><ref>An actual argument from ''Condraz23'' on the now-folded Secular-Rationalist Bulletin Board, [[Freethought and Rationalism Discussion Board|IIDB]].</ref></blockquote>


To the above, a participant argued that a child - in representing a less developed version of a fully developed adult, will always be to some extent sexually attractive. Pot plants or utensils do not have the physical and genetic make-up of small humans who are soon to reach optimum sexual attractiveness. It is also simplistic to suggest that the only purpose of erotic interest in another would be reproductive, therefore negating the [[Debate Guide: Evolutionary logic|evolution]] of attraction towards prepubescents.  
To the above, a participant then argued back that a "child" - in representing a marginally less developed version of a fully developed adult, will always be to some extent sexually attractive.  


Considering that most adults admire, in a "nonsexual" the unique beauty of prepubescent children (as exemplified by the child nude's history as an object of artistic study), where do we draw the line between this and "pedophilia"? This question cuts to the very heart of [[Debate Guide: The discursive nature of human sexuality|sexuality as discourse]] - that is - sexuality as a human-constructed and culturally-variable cluster of feelings and behaviours which share a unique, human-given significance. It is simply not good enough to say that ones interest is "not sexual". We must find the pedophile in the parent and the parent in the pedophile, because these complex feelings must at some place have a meeting point.
Putting aside the proponent's [[:Template:EGLComp|flawed puberty projections]], pot plants or utensils do not have the physical and genetic make-up of small humans who are soon to reach optimum sexual attractiveness in late puberty. It is also simplistic to suggest the only purpose of erotic interest towards a young person would be reproductive. There are numerous [[Debate Guide: Evolutionary logic|evolutionary]] biological incentives that are known to underpin strong attractions towards prepubescents, and [[Research: Evolutionary Perspectives on Intergenerational Sexuality|a lot of theory]] to go off. The cross-cultural and cross-species perspectives already mentioned would appear to confirm at least some of this theory by identifying an apparently non-maladaptive behavioral end-point.
 
Considering that most adults find prepubescent children generally attractive (as exemplified by the child nude's history as an [[Wikipedia:Child erotica|object of artistic study]]), where do we draw the line between this and "pedophilia"? This question cuts to the very heart of [[Debate Guide: Social constructionism|sexuality as discourse]]. One's sexuality can be seen as a cluster of feelings and dispositions which are only given significance within a social and cultural context. It is this social context that forces us to deny there is some [[Research:_Evolutionary_Perspectives_on_Intergenerational_Sexuality#Sex_as_an_attachment_promoter|common meeting place between a parent's love for a child, and an erotic bond]]. Instead, we split and dichotomize the erotic and non-erotic, in order to feel comfortable about ourselves, which is perhaps understandable, but nevertheless an obvious coping mechanism.
 
==See also==
 
*[[Debate Guide: Religious arguments]]
*[[Debate Guide: Pedophiles chose their condition]]
*[[Wikipedia:Is–ought problem|Is–ought problem]] - Proponents of this argument may also show a general inability to distinguish is from ought statements.
 
==Notes==


[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Minor-Attracted]]
[[Category:Debate]][[Category:Debating Points: Minor-Attracted]]


[[fr:Guide de débat: La pédophilie est non naturelle]]
[[fr:Guide de débat: La pédophilie est non naturelle]]

Latest revision as of 20:30, 14 April 2024

Pedophilia is sick, unnatural and just plain wrong!

Even though most religions do not condemn pedophilia, many religious people are taught that it is sinful, with the post hoc reasoning that it is "unnatural"

Pedophilia is not unnatural. Hebephilia, in particular, is probably "normative". But let's first address the central fallacy of the argument from nature.

The opponent appears to believe that something is wrong simply because it is "unnatural". But, hold on. We do not dispute the morality of chemotherapy, HIV drugs, the motorcar or modern agriculture, all of which are the products of industry. Instead, our civilization is dependent upon them. If we are to assert that something, by not serving the immediate interests of nature is less moral, not only would we be able to justify infanticide, but as skeptical scientists like Richard Green might remind us, we would also have to condemn homosexuality.[1] Yet, we celebrate gays and their culture in western society with an annual Pride Festival, and condemn the slaying of other people's children.

Evidence suggests that humans and close animal relatives have a historical tendency towards relationships (including sexuality) between mature and developing individuals. See, for example, Intergenerational Sexual Behaviors in Animals, Nonwestern Intergenerational Relationships and Intergenerational Relationships in History.

Assuming that the average child begins puberty at fourteen years, the vast majority of preteens would be prepubescent. Sexual attraction also requires either masculine or feminine secondary sexual characteristics and therefore, a preteen child would be as sexually attractive as a broom or pot plant.[2]

To the above, a participant then argued back that a "child" - in representing a marginally less developed version of a fully developed adult, will always be to some extent sexually attractive.

Putting aside the proponent's flawed puberty projections, pot plants or utensils do not have the physical and genetic make-up of small humans who are soon to reach optimum sexual attractiveness in late puberty. It is also simplistic to suggest the only purpose of erotic interest towards a young person would be reproductive. There are numerous evolutionary biological incentives that are known to underpin strong attractions towards prepubescents, and a lot of theory to go off. The cross-cultural and cross-species perspectives already mentioned would appear to confirm at least some of this theory by identifying an apparently non-maladaptive behavioral end-point.

Considering that most adults find prepubescent children generally attractive (as exemplified by the child nude's history as an object of artistic study), where do we draw the line between this and "pedophilia"? This question cuts to the very heart of sexuality as discourse. One's sexuality can be seen as a cluster of feelings and dispositions which are only given significance within a social and cultural context. It is this social context that forces us to deny there is some common meeting place between a parent's love for a child, and an erotic bond. Instead, we split and dichotomize the erotic and non-erotic, in order to feel comfortable about ourselves, which is perhaps understandable, but nevertheless an obvious coping mechanism.

See also

Notes

  1. SOT: Green Letter
  2. An actual argument from Condraz23 on the now-folded Secular-Rationalist Bulletin Board, IIDB.