View source for User talk:Prue

==Hi==

Thanks for submitting the sources to the new article on the lGBT movement. Here is a template for citations:

<nowiki><ref>[https://example.com/example Citation or rough name]</ref></nowiki>

For no Link:

<nowiki><ref>Citation</ref></nowiki>

--[[User:JohnHolt|JohnHolt]] ([[User talk:JohnHolt|talk]]) 08:43, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

==I have created two articles==

With topical information you submitted to [[Censorship]]:

*[[David Sonenschein]] - COMPLETE.
*[[Ernest Borneman]]

In time, these will be developed, but this might be a good point to look at the foundational basis of a working article. We templated one a while back:

[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=NewgonWiki:Article_template_for_a_stub&action=edit copy the wikitext and paste into the articles, then knock out the categories and sections you don't need and work the content]. --[[User:JohnHolt|JohnHolt]] ([[User talk:JohnHolt|talk]]) 09:33, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

==Thank You==

Hi there. As you can see I'm still slowly slowly learning by doing, making contributions here and there to try and get a handle on how editing and creating pages works. Apologies for my sloppiness... And thank you for making separate pages for Borneman and Sonenschein; I put way too much info but I'm not too sure on how to create a page as opposed to just editing an already made one. I'll practice making a page in the near future, as I'm thinking of creating a page "bias in research" where I'll summarize the few explicit analysis of research bias by Bruce Rind and Alayne Yates, respectively. And prob discuss Paul Okami and Joel Best's discussions of victimological [non-scientific] terminology being used in research. Also, if you've not seen these pages yet I wonder if they'd be good to archive https://famouspedophiles.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/notables-figures-living-or-dead-who-evinced-an-attraction-to-people-under-16-with-a-focus-on-under-13/   and https://famouspedophiles.wordpress.com/2016/04/28/famous-pedophiles/
:Hey, yes, Famous Peds is a project that falls under our mirror project (i.e. it contains plenty of material we can duplicate if it is carefully vetted and integrated into our article/category structure). I'd like to end up with plenty of medium-size, easy to mainatin historical articles based on that site. BoyWiki also has some similar information, but they also have a lot of texts and deep archives - the kind of thing we read and summarize when relevant, but don't engage in ourselves unless we have exclusive access to a text, and that is rare.
:I have just created an article on [[Philip Tromovitch|Tromovitch]] to show you how a basic stub article works, although you are welcome to include more information about your subjects if it is less well circulated elsewhere. So if we have an article on a popular current/evolving subject, we tend to just keep a stub that links out, so it doesn't need updating. We link out to resources that are updated - i.e. Wikipedia. If it's a common but relevant topic like Michael Jackson for example, we would carry information that is less widely circulated, and link out for everything else.
:When you create an article, to begin with, you should just be more inclusive. I'll then come in and delete excessive categories etc, or suggest alternative locations for other information.
:What you propose sounds like a research review list for "problems in research". This was suggested by Jillium (?), so feel free to copy the format and start building it (first of all, without linking it to the research project). We are working on the summarization of Janssen - a similar kind of thing, but more long term in its scope. --[[User:JohnHolt|JohnHolt]] ([[User talk:JohnHolt|talk]]) 04:56, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

==Bias in research==
I saw this request and modified an existing article to accommodate any excerpts you might have on these topics:

[[Research: Methodological flaws and syndrome construction]] --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 00:04, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

:For a list of things not yet integrated to articles: [https://www.newgon.net/wiki/Talk:Research]  --[[User:JohnHolt|JohnHolt]] ([[User talk:JohnHolt|talk]]) 07:20, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

==Lets work on it here==

Testimonies now integrated in format.

Let's use this page as the sandbox for a new article.

The article you have quoted seems to have ample material for an new article on Korephilia, Lesbian Intergenerational relationships or something like that. This would have to be a new article. Alternatively, a book stub with a review or excerpts annexed could be an acceptable format. let me know and i'll look at creating something. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 06:37, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

===The content===

* '''Littauer, Amanda. (2020) [https://doi.org/10.3167/hrrh.2020.460107 Queer Girls and Intergenerational Lesbian Sexuality in the 1970s], in ''Historical Reflections'', 46:1, 95-108'''

*: '''Abstract''': "Drawing on letters and writings by teenage girls and oral history interviews, this article aims to open a scholarly conversation about the existence and significance of intergenerational sexual relationships between minor girls and adult women in the years leading up to and encompassing the lesbian feminist movement of the 1970s. Lesbian history and culture say very little about sexual connections between youth and adults, sweeping them under the rug in gender-inflected ways that differ from the suppression of speech in gay male history and culture about intergenerational sex between boys and men. Nonetheless, my research suggests that, despite lesbian feminists’ caution and even negativity toward teen girls, erotic and sexual relationships with adult women provided girls access to support, pleasure, mentorship, and community."

*: Newgon: Except ''[[Paidika]]'''s special issue dedicated to female sexuality and the non-specialist Youthlove Anthology "''[https://archive.org/details/kidsclub-shesaid She Said - Women, Lesbians and Feminists Speak about Youthlove]''", this article represents one of the few discussions of "Queer" (non-normative) intergenerational lesbianism. Because the article represents a seminal contribution drawing on archival material which has never been publicized before, we have included longer quotations as a separate page here '''[if someone could create this, link the page and simply paste the following quotations that would be amazing 'cause idk how / I'll take forever.''', and focused on testimonies in what follows here. 

['''Quotes for separate article''' - I've given some titles in bold to separate info and signpost the reader]:  

'''The Conspiracy of Silence on Intergenerational Lesbianism''' 

"Across the [feminist] ideological spectrum, there was strong opposition to the sexual objectification of women and attentiveness to the ways that power relations shaped sexual dynamics. The feminist politicization of sexuality sometimes led lesbian feminists to downplay butch masculinity and to deemphasize lesbian sexual desire and practice. It should not be surprising, then, that explicit discussion of age-differentiated sexual relationships between women and girls felt risky and unwelcome in lesbian feminist communities" (p. 96) 

"Historians have speculated that reasons for this absence in the literature likely include the lasting impact of the myth of homosexual pedophilia; the exclusion of legal minors from LGBT commercial, cultural, and social spaces; and the politics of gay and lesbian respectability in the marriage equality era" (p. 96).  

"Many teen girls in the mid-to late twentieth century [...] initiated sexual and romantic relationships with self-identified lesbians who were part of lesbian networks. Unlike in gay male subcultures, however, lesbian and lesbian feminist communities usually stigmatized relationships between adult lesbians and adolescents, who were seen as placing adults at risk of persecution and even legal prosecution for “contributing to the delinquency of a minor.” In their search for connection and belonging, teen girls who initiated romantic and sexual relationships with adult lesbians risked rejection and further alienation" (pp. 100-101). 

"In ''Boots of Leather, Slippers of Gold'', Elizabeth Kennedy and Madeline Davis [..] mention the phenomenon of older femmes taking young butches under their wings, both socially and sexually. Lesbians (and gay men) in the postwar years often used the language of “bringing out” to describe a more experienced queer person’s introduction of same-sex sexual practice to a less experienced person" (p. 102). 

'''Littauer's Approach'''

"I take a social-historical approach that centers the voices of girls, whom I define according to gender self-identification and legal minor designation (i.e., under the age of eighteen or twenty-one, depending on the jurisdiction). I ask what girls and women have said and written about their romantic and erotic feelings for, and consensual sexual relationships with, adult women and what themes or categories we might use to begin to understand what those connections meant and how they shaped the lives and subjectivities of queer girls." (pp. 96-97)

"Based on preliminary research, I argue that girls in age-differentiated sexual relationships with adult women sought affective experiences of pleasure, belonging, and safety, and in many cases also sociosexual mentorship and access to resources, independence, and community. Their ability to achieve these outcomes depended largely on forces and dynamics beyond their control, including adult lesbians’ preference for keeping youth at a distance." (p. 97)

'''Queer Girls Have Always Been There, You Just Didn't Notice'''

"Stories of girls developing “crushes” on adult women are ubiquitous in oral histories, autobiographies, and fiction. Gym teachers, school teachers, scout leaders, camp counselors, and nuns appear over and over again as the objects of girls’ affections and obsessions, which were often romantic and sometimes sexual in nature. Sources from the 1970s suggest marked continuity from earlier decades in the affective experience of “schoolgirl crushes” as well as in the function of such recollections in “coming out” narratives that sought to document, track, and consolidate the emergence of lesbian identity." (p. 97)

"In the 1970s, nationally known lesbian authors such as Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon joined teachers and others in the group of adult potential objects of adolescent girls’ fantasies and desires. Founding the nation’s first lesbian homophile organization, the Daughters of Bilitis, in the 1950s, Martin and Lyon published Lesbian/Woman in 1972 and devoted several pages to the problems facing lesbian teens. Girls from around the country got hold of the book and wrote to the authors, seeking advice and attention. In April of 1976, for instance, a seventeen-year-old named Paulette wrote from Zolfo Springs, Florida. Paulette mentioned early in her letter that she would turn eighteen on 28 June. She wrote: “I know my age is very young, it is a label, I am somewhat more mature in ways than that of my age.” She then raved about the book in emotional and erotic language:

[indented] I have your book in my lap right now and I am looking at the cover and 
just by looking at this cover just goes to show you can’t tell a book by it’s 
[sic] cover . . . it’s what’s inside that counts, and ''boy'' does this book have 
something inside!!! I wish I could give some of this back to you, (this - the 
overwhelming feeling I get, wow! it will turn you around. Really it’s a pocketful full of energy, excitement so much, listen it’s beyond words, what can I say I could go on and on and never really define what I feel exactly, ecstatic, turned on tremendously!) I really like you both very much, I like your hearts, I like ''you''. Please write, I hope you do soon. Love be with you, with my love and happiness to you, Paulette.

"Many girls in the mid-to late twentieth century acted on their feelings for adult women and entered into romantic and sexual relationships, usually in their own neighborhoods and communities. A range of sources speak to girls’ experiences in sexual relationships with adult women, who were often married with children and who did not typically identify as lesbians or engage in lesbian subcultures. For teen girls, these relationships served a range of purposes and met a variety of needs, including the opportunity to recognize or validate their romantic and/or sexual desire for women and to enjoy physical and emotional pleasure, connection, and satisfaction. Letters from adolescent girls seeking advice about their sexual relationships with older women in the 1970s suggest, however, that the interpersonal dynamics of age-differentiated couples could be quite complex and challenging, particularly in the absence of community support." (p. 98)

"Another letter speaks to the theme of relationships with older women introducing a mix of insecurity and support. An eighteen-year-old from Daytona, Florida, wrote that after two suicide attempts and a brief stay in a psychiatric ward—she pointed out that it was brief only because she knew better than to admit that she was gay—she went to live with an older, married woman and mother of two who was studying to become a psychologist. Talking openly about her feelings helped her tremendously, she explained. She fell in love with the older woman but kept her feelings to herself and was therefore quite surprised to find that her feelings were reciprocated. The two had an affair that lasted for a few months and that the letter writer described as “beautiful,” but after it ended, loneliness and suicidal thoughts were again taking hold and the letter writer begged Martin and Lyon to help her find other lesbians so that she would have a reason to keep going. She promised to wait for their reply before “doing anything stupid.” The file includes a copy of Lyon and Martin’s reply, in which they gave information about a local chapter of the National Organization for Women known to have several lesbian members and a chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis that was somewhat further away. They urged her to get rid of her gun and to use their help to secure support in finding her way as a lesbian in the world, as so many others had." (pp. 99-100).

'''Stigma and Secondary Harm Endured by Queer Girls'''

"An eighteen-year-old from Denton, Texas, wrote that the age difference between her and her thirty-six-year-old lover, Barbara, sometimes left Barbara feeling “guilty” and worried. She asked:

[indented] Do you know of any couples (homosexual) with a very large difference in ages that have had a long life together? I wish that you could let us know if you do — it would do nice to give Barbara a little extra encouragement. She worries about me more than she does herself and she is afraid something will happen to me because of our love. I hope I don’t take too much of your time, but you are about the only ones I really have to talk to about Barbara and me. It’s really great telling someone how much I love her — cause I do love her an awful lot.

Despite the stress created by their eighteen-year gap in age, the letter writer relished the opportunity to name the love that the two women shared. She also mentioned that she and Barbara were looking to rent a house together, which raises the point that intergenerational relationships created not only emotional and sexual possibilities, but also material opportunities for teen girls." (p. 100). 

"In the early 1970s, the two founders and editors of the literary arts journal for lesbians, ''Amazon Quarterly'', traveled across North America to interview subscribers and published excerpts of the interviews in a book called ''The New Lesbians'' [Laurel Galana and Gina Covina, ''The New Lesbians: Interviews with Women Across the U.S. and Canada'' (Berkeley, CA: Moon Books, 1977) - Newgon]. The book offered a lesbian feminist framework that explicitly countered dominant messages about lesbians’ family histories, psychological stability, reliance on gendered “roles,” sex lives, and general health and well-being.

Within this collection is the story of Sylvia, a novelist and “university teacher” in her “early forties” living in British Columbia with her long-term partner, Margaret. Sylvia remembered being attracted to girls by the age of thirteen and recognizing the feelings as sexual at fifteen, when she became involved with a thirty-five-year-old woman who was married with young children. When an interviewer asked how Sylvia felt about the relationship, Sylvia responded: “Just marvelous, I was just awestruck, it was the most marvelous thing to discover and it was an odd relationship.” She continued: “I suppose I really joined the family, there was no hassle, her husband knew what the relationship was and it didn’t bother him.” In fact, she explained, she was “devoted to him, too,” to the point that when Sylvia was staying with the family to help with the children during their mother’s illness, Sylvia became “sexually involved” with her lover’s husband, because “it just seemed the right sort of comforting thing to do.” The interviewer asked if Sylvia felt the need to tell other people in order to gain support, and Sylvia answered “no”; she “had a feeling of secrecy” to protect the relationship, because it was “so absolutely acceptable to all of us” but would almost certainly baffle her parents and grandmother." (pp. 100-101). 

"although legal prosecution of women over twenty-one for having sex with legal minors “rarely occurs,” the possibility did exist and that parents of youth sometimes threatened legal action. The mother of Teresa, one of [Susan] Cahn’s white narrators, “said she was going to call the cops and throw my lover in jail,” which ended the relationship. As a result, some adults insisted on keeping their relationships with minors completely secret, which, as Cahn pointed out, “puts a great deal of added pressure on both partners.” Cahn added that older partners sometimes treated younger lovers in “ageist” ways, criticizing them for their lack of experience or expressing frustration that they could not get into bars easily or at all" (p. 104).

Angelica, who was nineteen, felt that she was the one who “set up” the mother–child dynamic in her relationship at sixteen with a woman who was thirty. “I would keep using my age as an excuse” for not knowing things, “setting myself up as a baby needing to be mothered.” In a different relationship, however, the dynamic was reversed, and her older lover resisted other lesbians’ assumptions about the burden of dating someone so young. “I remember how if we would be in the bar and other women would come up and talk about how she’s a chicken hawk . . . and what’s she doing with a baby dyke and don’t you have to teach her everything. . . . She would say, ‘I don’t have to teach her anything. She’s teaching it all to me.’” Angelica’s account reveals the multiple possibilities for age-differentiated relationships, whose internal dynamics were often more subtle or complex than the stereotypes would suggest." (p. 105).

"A few of [Susan] Cahn’s interviewees reflected on the reasons why adult lesbian feminists tended to stigmatize relationships with girls and young women under twenty-one, including internalized homophobia. The myth of pedophilia inaccurately stigmatized gay and lesbian people as child molesters seeking to “recruit” youth into homosexuality and clearly got into the heads of lesbians. Elliot, a seventeen-year-old white lesbian, told Cahn that “I’ve had a couple people just freak out” when they found out her age. “Just feeling like they robbed the cradle. . . . It’s like they can be relating to me just fine. But once they find out I’m 17, these huge stereotypes just come down." (pp. 105-106).

"The sting of adult lesbians’ sexual rejection was especially frustrating to young lesbian feminists who embraced the movement’s political analysis of power and oppression. Like the young lesbian subjects about whom I write in “Your Young Lesbian Sisters,” Cahn’s interviewees understood ageism as limiting girls’ access to resources, community, and their own potential. They 
saw it as an oppressive structural force that intersected with sexism and homophobia, and sometimes also racism. For Kim, a black sixteen-year-old, the lesbian community “has showed me what I could have, if I was the right age and the right color and looked right. . . . It’s offered me some things; a sense that there are women here, that there are lesbians here. Whether they’re ''here'' for you is another thing.” Older white lesbians’ attitudes toward Kim’s blackness and youth left Kim feeling alone, even in the midst of lesbian community." (p. 106). 

"Emily, one of Cahn’s white interviewees, explained that her current lover, who at thirty was ten years older than herself, “has the old image of the lecherous old woman who seduces the young woman into lesbianism.” Liz also explored the fears driving women’s reluctance to see young lesbians as potential sexual partners: “I think that some people are threatened . . . I know there’s that issue in women’s heads about statutory rape or something . . . and being cradle robbers and all that kind of stuff . . . Maybe they thought I was a little naïve or something, and I’d take chances to do this and that . . . violating them or something.” In Liz’s view, women interested in teen girls feared their own negative views of themselves and perhaps of one another" (p. 106). 

'''The Verdict'''

Despite the need for considerable additional research on the subject, it appears that there was 
a marked contrast in the ways that gay male and lesbian subcultures regarded sex between adults and minors. Postwar lesbian and 1970s lesbian feminist cultures seem to have discouraged the eroticization of youth and sex between adults and minors, emphasizing the significance of age-based differences in maturity and perspective to a point that young lesbians often found patronizing and disrespectful. Nonetheless, girls experienced feelings of romance and desire toward adult women that they identified as meaningful, and they entered into consensual sexual relationships with older women through which they accessed pleasure, self-understanding, and resources of various kinds. Sexual intimacy with self-identified lesbians who were part of lesbian communities provided even greater benefits, such as sexual and social mentorship and introduction to subcultural networks and shared vocabularies. Intergenerational eroticism was a factor in the lives of teen girls who, whether they lived in Denton, Texas, or Philadelphia, sought out connections to adult women through erotic letters to authors, relationships with neighboring housewives, and sexual instruction from a lesbian couple providing a place to crash on nights away from home. It is time to take the sexual agency of queer youth seriously, which means that many of us have a great deal more research to do." (pp. 106-107).

==New Articles==

As well as the articles on Borneman and the above idea on intergenerational lesbianism, we can probably look at creating a special article for 20th Century pederasty before Stonewall, if you wish to keep reading on this topic. This can take in some of the material in the LGBT-MAP article, allowing it to be more summary in its treatment. Let me know which of these ideas you will like to develop/will be adding to, and I will create the relevant article. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 22:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

:Hey. I don't think I'm well-read enough on pre-stonewall 20th century pederasty. I can name-drop famous figures / groups - Oscar Wilde, Andre Gide, John Addington Symonds and the Uranians - but that's about it. My knowledge on each of them is not very deep. People who are more into classic BL literature, well-versed on pederasty would be better. I wonder if the scholar who runs the Greek Love website would want to write something? I don't know them personally, but I've been told by ppl who know them that they're very supportive. 

:I think it'd be great to have a separate article dedicated to intergen lesbianism. Littauer provides a good basis, supplemented by people like Pat Califa: "I know very few lesbians, and even fewer gay men, who waited until they were eighteen to come out. Most of us were aware well before puberty that we wanted to be close to or sexual with members of our own sex. I've heard countless stories from women about their attempts to seduce their high school gym teachers or camp counselors. Not all of these attempts were unsuccessful." https://www.ipce.info/ipceweb/Library/califa_feminism.htm    

:These 2 poss relevant articles I have saved I need to read-through, esp. the 2nd one:

:Martha Vicinus, ‘Distance and Desire: English Boarding-School Friendships’, in The Lesbian Issue: Essays from Signs (Chicago: Chicago University Press, 1985) <https://www.jstor.org/stable/3173613>. Judith Gay, "Mummies and Babies" and Friends and Lovers in Lesotho’, in Journal of Homosexuality, 11:3-4 (1986), 97-116 <https://doi.org/10.1300/J082v11n03_07>

:So yes let's go with intergen lesbianism and I'll try and summarize points by Littauer rather than block quoting her. Also, I'm gonna quickly add citations for the Feminism page. This article could be relevant to both pages, and I need to skim that too: Margaret A. Simons, ‘Lesbian Connections: Simone de Beauvoir and Feminism', in Signs, 18:1 (Autumn, 1992), 136-161 <https://www.jstor.org/stable/3174730> Beauvoir signed the famous french petition with Foucault et al. about abolishing AOC laws.

::Cool, I mentioned the other topic, because the information you have added to the LGBT-MAP article is reaching critical mass for forking, and could be summarized within the article itself. If more information is found, we will probably have to create a new article and manage it that way. I'll make [[Intergenerational Lesbianism]]. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 22:48, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

==Rotherham Report/Rochdale, etc==

Just did a short media review at [[Research: Commercial and online sexual exploitation]]. Wondering if the topic interests you? I'd like to see somebody go over the report and tease out what was really going on. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 16:39, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

==Alinka Gearon Paper==

I made some modifications to our citation of this paper after an author's request. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 23:08, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

===Copy of present text===

I have had to read parts of the paper due to complaints made by the author, and produced the following summary, also detaching the citation from most of the claims made. It seems to also bend to some of the theoretical aspects of her work, as well as our interpretation of the substantive aspects:

:''Others have focused on "trafficked children" ultimately ''detected'' by the system (charities and protective services). By virtue of the fact that the subjects of these studies are nearly always referred following complaints (either by the subjects themselves or an outside party) they will typically be victims of multiple forms of abuse. Nevertheless, in-depth case-studies reveal that the image of the "coercively trafficked" child is an inaccurate trope - one that is abused for political gain. For example, even when they had no economic power to escape the situation (they complied because of false promises of work, etc) minors used their own mental resources to protect themselves and ultimately to identify themselves as victims. Criminalization of minors is also pointed to as a source of harm.<ref>Gearon, A. (2019) [https://doi.org/10.1093/bjc/azy042 Child Trafficking - Young People’s Experiences of Front Line Services in England] in ''The British Journal of Criminology'', 59, 481-500</ref> Much less work concerns "child sex trafficking" in particular, and Agustin-type observational studies of ''youth'' sex workers would be almost impossible because of ethical restrictions. We use a range of sources and invite readers to form their own opinion as to the veracity of the child-saver industry's more outlandish claims.'' 

[Reference used:] {{reflist}}

Now, it may also be helpful if we could find other case studies on "trafficked" minors identified by agencies and self-report. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 17:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

It seems that use of the word "choice" (active, deliberate, etc) is theoretical in most such publications and not substantive. Gearon insists that it is not applied to minors, but I also added this from UNICEF, which seems to take a completely different line (despite the source interviews being similar in tone):

:''In 2008, UNICEF described this as a "deliberate choice" on the part of trafficked minors in a majority of interviewees.''<ref>[https://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/iwp_2008_05.pdf Dottridge, Mike (2008). Young People’s Voices on Child Trafficking: Experiences from South Eastern Europe, Innocenti Working Papers, no. 2008-05]</ref>

[Reference used:] {{reflist}}

Hi,

To be honest, after reading this paper in more detail, I have no issue with removing any reference to this paper from Newgon. In fact, I think it should be removed. The abstract is highly misleading and the article eventually becomes largely in opposition to Newgon's ethos and aims. The narratives included are about minors who do not know where they're going, or what they're going to be doing when they get there.  

E.g. quote:
"Contrary to being deemed as ‘consenting’ to their migration, young people’s experiences reveal that they exercised no choice in leaving their home countries. Family members often made the decision to migrate or agreed travel arrangements on their behalf,

    So when I was told that I was going with her, to be living with her child living in London, like in village we used to call it like ‘white peoples’ land’ … you don’t really have say on this matter, the adults know what’s best, you carry on, even if you don’t want to go. (Maya)

    When my uncle he do a deal with agent … I didn’t have choice … I didn’t choose the country, because my uncle he choose this for me. (Ammar)

Many young people did not know where they were going."

I don't think we need this study on Newgon. If anything, I am surprised at Gearon's finding that "front-line" services interpreted "young people’s migration as voluntary and consensual" in any way. This seems extremely odd.

My concern with "trafficking" is where this term is used by SWERFS/ SWERF esq ppl to encompass any sex work that involves crossing borders. If anything, Gearon's cases are the kind of cases we don't want happening. I think we can remove the reference with no issues, we have a LOT left on that page. 

The way Gearon has now been used could be replaced by a citation like this: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/everything-you-think-you_b_9772910

Quote:

"At the federal level any young person involved in commercial sex acts is considered a victim of a severe form of human trafficking. Because prostitution laws are regulated by states, it is not uncommon to have young people being arrested for prostitution-related offenses.

Unfortunately, because their behavior is criminalized and because many of these young people report having experience abuse perpetrated by police officers, they largely do not think of law enforcement as a safety option"  

All the best

:I'd like to preface anything related to sex work in particular with what is known about trafficking according to "trafficked children". We can assume that as these are complaint-led reviews and because charities and child protective services typically have a much lower bar of evidence than the criminal system, that this is pretty much the worst kind of substantiated (as in recorded) complaint related to child trafficking into ''developed economies''. I think it's important to have those studies, so I added another one from UNICEF and explained how we are using them in an editorial note.

:As our article concerns Youth Sex Work, anything related to that specific topic should have its own excerpt. We are attempting to inform a conclusion about sex work, although we are obviously a long way away from that. The way I have improved the article is just to make more clear cut distinctions re. how we cite the work. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 18:10, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

==Feminist Bios==

As per the design of these wiki pages, we will eventually need individual articles on the Feminist authors in [[Feminism]]. This will glue together the excerpts you have taken with some basic biographical information, and the aforementioned article will then be cut down to size, with each author summarized and linked. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 00:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

==Historical and Ethnological Compendium==

Thanks for your submissions. Once I am on my desktop, I will look at some of the formatting on the most recent edits.

I have a long term plan to combine the articles on history and ethnology into one, and fill it with summaries of various literature reviews and a full review of Janssen. We are likely to use the standard article format (as opposed to excerpts) to achieve this, but I will use highlighter to denote three different time periods, probably up to the middle ages, pre Victorian and the modern industrial era. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 12:54, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

===Siwa===

Do you think there is anything useful in here for our non-western or historical article: [[Media:Siwa today by David Thorstad.pdf|Siwa today]] --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 21:39, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

:I'm amazed at the Thorstand stuff you're digging up. It's incredible. I'll take a look at this article and see if I find anything to add :)

::Looks like we use the WA Percy version in the history compendium, but a load more references. Maybe we can see what the quote comes from, write a lede and tidy the refs.--[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 23:18, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

==Feray, Plummer==

Thanks for adding these bios. If possible, could you add some categories to Feray and to Plummer when you have finished editing. Feray has now been tidied up and is ready to be categorized. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 21:29, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

==Guidance==

Thanks for your recent edits. It would be great if you could have a look here, particularly with respect to internal linking of files. Much like external links in a body of text are rarely superior to a reference list, internal file links should be formatted and not presented as an external link. E.g. <nowiki>[[Media:Wiki.png|Site Logo]]</nowiki>. The prior text in an edit window will result in a link to our site logo with the text "Site Logo" when published. The benefits of this are... firstly that Newgon is not an external. Secondly that if our url changes, the link automatically changes to new domain.net.

[[NewgonWiki:Working standards and technical advice]]

If my eyes are up to the task, I'll go over the edits in a few days and see what I can do. Maybe Helen can also help. On a medical enforced rest here unfortunately. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 18:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

"On a medical enforced rest here unfortunately"
> I'm not religious but I pray for your good health! Be safe, be well, and thanks for all you do! - Prue

===Cite a reference as many times as you like===

Thanks for your edits to Ken Plummer. Here is a tip. To cite a ref multiple times, try the following wikitext:

<nowiki><ref name=Google>[http://Google.com Google Website]</ref></nowiki>

Then when you repeat the tag <nowiki><ref name="Google" /></nowiki> after any passage of text for which you wish to use the same citation, the inline citation will point to the same footnote. The footnote will refer back by internal link to each use within the article.

[[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity]] does this frequently with some citations. Open up the edit window and take a look at the wikitext. And then look at the footnote list. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 22:03, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

===Categorization of archive pages is essential===

Categorization and archiving is absolutely essential to our project. You have uploaded plenty of material that is invisible to our archiving system as a result of failing to categorize or archive it. Please check Helen's recent uploads for an example of how archive material must be categorized, much like articles. All the relevant subcategories can be found here:

[[:Category:Archival]]

Much of that material must also enter the Chronological Archive. But it is your call as to what enters, in line with the chronological archive's focus on activism and texts of import. I can simply not patrol all this content right now due to my health, but thanks for your edits. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 19:32, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

===A productive exercize===

Thanks for your recent edits. I'm a bit behind with my stylistic and formatting alterations of the recent edits. I'd like to suggest something that might help in learning MediaWiki, because I have a pet theory that you have not looked into it because of the obscurity of this software. That is the "history and diffs" section of this wiki!

For example, go to "recent changes". Click on the "history" link for an article that you have edited recently, when it shows that I have gone in afterwards and corrected some style and formatting. Then click on the "diff" of my edits. This will show you how I have changed the wikicode along with the edit summary I have added. I do believe this is the fastest way to learn good wikicode, and not knowing that these hints and tips exist may be one of the reasons why you do things like adding a link to our own article inside ref tags (unnecessary), or as an external link, which leaves me scratching my head.

The categories topic above can be solved by simply adding <nowiki>[[Category:Nameofcategory]]</nowiki> to the file description when you upload it. This makes it visible to hundreds more readers - i.e. people who use cats to navigate --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 20:14, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice! I'll remember to category archive files in future! Haha, I have looked around the various pages you've spotlighted to me, but you'd be right in that I've been learning by doing, and that I've never contributed to wiki style pages like this before helping out w/ Newgon. I think I'm getting much better at it; now the task is to get quicker at it! Thanks and be well! - Prue

== Eric Gill ==

Thanks for the contributions on [[Eric Gill]]. Please take a look at my changes and edit summaries for my last two edits to the article. This will help you: 1. Link a Wikipedia article simply using wikicode as opposed to an external link. 2. Create a reference that is coded so that you can use it as a citation at multiple points in an article using the <nowiki><ref name="ABCXYZ" /></nowiki> attribute (as opposed to creating notes such as "see reference ABCXYZ". --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 18:49, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

== Roger Moody ==

Thanks for your article, Roger Moody. We should invent some kind of Wikipedia Barnstar, for all your submissions.

I can see only one issue after my recent edit (description and diffs in article history): That is he is Category:People: Desceased. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 14:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

"We should invent some kind of Wikipedia Barnstar, for all your submissions." > Had to look that up. Thanks pallio it's nice to have your work appreciated; thanks for all you do and yes the edits are all looking good. Prue ~

==Thanks==

Thanks for all your recent edits, I can see it is a lot and will try to go over all of them today.

For now, I have just changed [[Peter Schult]] in one edit. Please take a look at the diffs on that change.

I have deliberately left one thing unattended, too. Can you tell what it is? Hint: it's a header/title near the bottom of the article... --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 11:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

:I believe he may also qualify for <nowiki>[[Category:Law/Crime]][[Category:Law/Crime: German]]</nowiki>

:It will be great to get [[Ernest Borneman]] finished and categorized. Looks like it just needs some basic changes.

:Above your editing box, you will see a little button with a tiny x followed by a scribble. That is your signature (represented in wikitext as <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>). Print your signature after your comment on talk pages like this. Also indent sequential comments in a talk page convo as I have done with this one. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 11:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

::I'll set us up now, and do the following job. The missing element was the References header, which you just need to put as a separate line before the categories at the end of the article:

::<nowiki>==References==</nowiki>

::The list auto-generates below this heading. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 14:54, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

:::Having done this, I have made some changes to [[Text of Beispiel Peter Schult]] including changing the title to reflect that it is an archive article, and removing encyclopedia categories. I have introduced archival categories from [[:Category:Archival]] (including the root). I believe your text will be ready for the chrono archive when it is complete, so you can pre-emptively add it there. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 15:08, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

==Schult book==

I moved the first section to [[:File:Peter Schult - Pedophilia in Public Discourse.pdf]] so it looks nice on screen in the categories. No need to alter or categorize the other files. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 19:10, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Okay I was worried for a second there; had the whole thing written out with all the links, then it said the preface was deleted! XD Uploaded what I'd done to [[https://www.newgon.net/wiki/File:Peter_Schult_-_Pedophilia_in_Public_Discourse.pdf]] --[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 19:16, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

:No, just keeping the archive-listed file name presentable. Some people like to use categories to search, and I am not aware of how we can make custom titles override the file name when a file appears in a category. I'll be back on around Friday - trying to give myself a break every week. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 22:26, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

::No worries, I think I'll take a break too. I'm happy with the additions I've been able to make but I'm probably spending a bit ''too much'' time on it. Except the celibate ones, the Famous peds blog is almost completely reproduced on Newgon now. Take care; I hope you're well :) --[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 23:20, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

:::Yes, thanks so much. I have requested for the file size limit to be raised by admin. --[[User:The Admins|The Admins]] ([[User talk:The Admins|talk]]) 00:04, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

::::If it would be helpful for me to have some level of Admin here to help out and monitor changes, since I've now spent some time creating pages, I'd be happy to offer to help out in some way if that eases the burden on you. It wouldn't be all that hard for me to monitor the addition of wikitext and look over changes as we try to get others in the PCMA etc to contribute) --[[User:Prue|Prue]] ([[User talk:Prue|talk]]) 00:11, 13 February 2023 (UTC)