https://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&feed=atom&action=historyDebate Guide: MAPs are invalid - Revision history2024-03-29T07:11:18ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.41.0https://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=23445&oldid=prevThe Admins: /* Lessons from history */2023-10-07T18:45:09Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Lessons from history</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Homosexuality has, of course, been [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History|age-structured throughout history]] (see also, resources such as [https://greek-love.com/ Greek Love: Pederasty throughout the ages]). Normative, modern-day teleio-homosexuals would be invalid by most classical standards, as they date exclusively within their own adult age group. However, experience tells us that modern-day homosexuals take differing roles indicative of the age gap in classical pederasty, often explicitly power structuring their sexual lives.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Homosexuality has, of course, been [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History|age-structured throughout history]] (see also, resources such as [https://greek-love.com/ Greek Love: Pederasty throughout the ages]). Normative, modern-day <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[Teleiophilia|</ins>teleio<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]]</ins>-homosexuals would be invalid by most classical standards, as they date exclusively within their own adult age group. However, experience tells us that modern-day homosexuals take differing roles indicative of the age gap in classical pederasty, often explicitly power structuring their sexual lives.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>===Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity===</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>===Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity===</div></td></tr>
</table>The Adminshttps://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=23065&oldid=prevThe Admins: "liberal" is revisionist. the issue here is that these individuals pretend to be literate in social justice, and are quite the opposite of "liberal"2023-09-04T22:20:15Z<p>"liberal" is revisionist. the issue here is that these individuals pretend to be literate in social justice, and are quite the opposite of "liberal"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==The invalidity of "validity" as an argument==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==The invalidity of "validity" as an argument==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The concept of ''valid'' and ''invalid'' sexuality is clearly chauvinistic and a questionable idea in and of itself. This strategy of "othering" and erasure appears to be a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">rather shameful liberal </del>rehash of 1980s respectability politics deployed by the conservative moral majority. Decades before that, the German Nazi party also [[Historical analogies for MAPs and allies|''invalidated'' pederasts]]; the only difference being that those boy-lovers were not the only hunted demographic. The Nazis made sure that they were joined by "normal" ''teleiophilic'' homosexuals - the sort of people who now ritualistically invalidate pederasts.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20140109235532/http://archive.guidemag.com/magcontent/invokemagcontent.cfm?ID=064C63A6-125A-11D4-A7AB00A0C9D84F02 Human Rights Wrongs, by Andriette, 1998]</ref> Nevertheless, some modern day homosexuals might tentatively agree with the Germans and maintain, in their vanity, that pedophilia and hebephilia are mental illnesses and therefore "invalid". In doing this, "liberal" gays should be congratulated on confirming that pedophiles are entitled to care, respect, protection, social interaction and "safe spaces" in which to "recover". After all, a good LGBT person with a firm understanding of their own history must surely not submit others to the ableism and carceral psychiatry that was once used against ''their own'' people.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The concept of ''valid'' and ''invalid'' sexuality is clearly chauvinistic and a questionable idea in and of itself. This strategy of "othering" and erasure appears to be a rehash of 1980s respectability politics deployed by the conservative moral majority<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, albeit under the pretense of social-justice literacy</ins>. Decades before that, the German Nazi party also [[Historical analogies for MAPs and allies|''invalidated'' pederasts]]; the only difference being that those boy-lovers were not the only hunted demographic. The Nazis made sure that they were joined by "normal" ''teleiophilic'' homosexuals - the sort of people who now ritualistically invalidate pederasts.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20140109235532/http://archive.guidemag.com/magcontent/invokemagcontent.cfm?ID=064C63A6-125A-11D4-A7AB00A0C9D84F02 Human Rights Wrongs, by Andriette, 1998]</ref> Nevertheless, some modern day homosexuals might tentatively agree with the Germans and maintain, in their vanity, that pedophilia and hebephilia are mental illnesses and therefore "invalid". In doing this, "liberal" gays should be congratulated on confirming that pedophiles are entitled to care, respect, protection, social interaction and "safe spaces" in which to "recover". After all, a good LGBT person with a firm understanding of their own history must surely not submit others to the ableism and carceral psychiatry that was once used against ''their own'' people.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ultimately, we must ask: What constitutes a valid determinant of "sexuality"? Any intellectually honest, or historically literate LGBT campaigner or liberal should be able to explain this in a way that does not rely on ''normativity''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ultimately, we must ask: What constitutes a valid determinant of "sexuality"? Any intellectually honest, or historically literate LGBT campaigner or liberal should be able to explain this in a way that does not rely on ''normativity''.</div></td></tr>
</table>The Adminshttps://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=23061&oldid=prevMatthewyoung at 21:06, 4 September 20232023-09-04T21:06:44Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==The invalidity of "validity" as an argument==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==The invalidity of "validity" as an argument==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The concept of ''valid'' and ''invalid'' sexuality is clearly chauvinistic and a questionable idea in and of itself. This strategy of "othering" and erasure appears to be a rather shameful <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">leftist-</del>liberal <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">SJW </del>rehash of 1980s respectability politics deployed by the conservative moral majority. Decades before that, the German Nazi party also [[Historical analogies for MAPs and allies|''invalidated'' pederasts]]; the only difference being that those boy-lovers were not the only hunted demographic. The Nazis made sure that they were joined by "normal" ''teleiophilic'' homosexuals - the sort of people who now ritualistically invalidate pederasts.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20140109235532/http://archive.guidemag.com/magcontent/invokemagcontent.cfm?ID=064C63A6-125A-11D4-A7AB00A0C9D84F02 Human Rights Wrongs, by Andriette, 1998]</ref> Nevertheless, some modern day homosexuals might tentatively agree with the Germans and maintain, in their vanity, that pedophilia and hebephilia are mental illnesses and therefore "invalid". In doing this, "liberal" gays should be congratulated on confirming that pedophiles are entitled to care, respect, protection, social interaction and "safe spaces" in which to "recover". After all, a good LGBT person with a firm understanding of their own history must surely not submit others to the ableism and carceral psychiatry that was once used against ''their own'' people.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The concept of ''valid'' and ''invalid'' sexuality is clearly chauvinistic and a questionable idea in and of itself. This strategy of "othering" and erasure appears to be a rather shameful liberal rehash of 1980s respectability politics deployed by the conservative moral majority. Decades before that, the German Nazi party also [[Historical analogies for MAPs and allies|''invalidated'' pederasts]]; the only difference being that those boy-lovers were not the only hunted demographic. The Nazis made sure that they were joined by "normal" ''teleiophilic'' homosexuals - the sort of people who now ritualistically invalidate pederasts.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20140109235532/http://archive.guidemag.com/magcontent/invokemagcontent.cfm?ID=064C63A6-125A-11D4-A7AB00A0C9D84F02 Human Rights Wrongs, by Andriette, 1998]</ref> Nevertheless, some modern day homosexuals might tentatively agree with the Germans and maintain, in their vanity, that pedophilia and hebephilia are mental illnesses and therefore "invalid". In doing this, "liberal" gays should be congratulated on confirming that pedophiles are entitled to care, respect, protection, social interaction and "safe spaces" in which to "recover". After all, a good LGBT person with a firm understanding of their own history must surely not submit others to the ableism and carceral psychiatry that was once used against ''their own'' people.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ultimately, we must ask: What constitutes a valid determinant of "sexuality"? Any intellectually honest, or historically literate LGBT campaigner or liberal should be able to explain this in a way that does not rely on ''normativity''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ultimately, we must ask: What constitutes a valid determinant of "sexuality"? Any intellectually honest, or historically literate LGBT campaigner or liberal should be able to explain this in a way that does not rely on ''normativity''.</div></td></tr>
</table>Matthewyounghttps://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=19306&oldid=prevThe Admins at 19:33, 24 March 20232023-03-24T19:33:20Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>__NOTOC__<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Attraction to minors is NOT a <u>valid</u> sexuality like LGBT, whatever label you put on it. Their age is not their sex! Child and Teenager are not genders, you disgusting invalid! You're not with us!'''''</font></blockquote></div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>__NOTOC__<blockquote><font color="green">'''''Attraction to minors is NOT a <u>valid</u> sexuality like LGBT, whatever label you put on it. Their age is not their sex! Child and Teenager are not genders, you disgusting invalid! You're not with us!'''''</font></blockquote></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[File:Sheep copy.png|thumb|Identitarians like to ignore their former friend, [[Alfred Kinsey]]]][[File:SexualOritent.jpg|thumb|Trolling meme response]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[File:Sheep copy.png|thumb|Identitarians like to ignore their former friend, [[Alfred Kinsey]]]][[File:SexualOritent.jpg|thumb|Trolling meme response]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[File:Antibadguy.png|thumb|Us good guys get to decide who is valid]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This "identitarian" argument is often, but not always made by LGBT people who like to claim that [[Minor Attracted Person|MAPs]] can not be ''gay'', ''homosexual'' or ''queer'' under any circumstances, and should voluntarily distance themselves from the LGBT Movement. They pursue this argument in seeming ignorance of how [[Research: Prevalence|common minor attractions]] are, and how minor attractions must by necessity coexist with gender-based attractions. Sexuality experts, and the ''"Bible of Psychiatry"'', the [[DSM]] appear to [[Research: Pedophilia as a sexual/erotic orientation|endorse the idea]] of attractions to particular subsets of minors as ''sexual orientations''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This "identitarian" argument is often, but not always made by LGBT people who like to claim that [[Minor Attracted Person|MAPs]] can not be ''gay'', ''homosexual'' or ''queer'' under any circumstances, and should voluntarily distance themselves from the LGBT Movement. They pursue this argument in seeming ignorance of how [[Research: Prevalence|common minor attractions]] are, and how minor attractions must by necessity coexist with gender-based attractions. Sexuality experts, and the ''"Bible of Psychiatry"'', the [[DSM]] appear to [[Research: Pedophilia as a sexual/erotic orientation|endorse the idea]] of attractions to particular subsets of minors as ''sexual orientations''.</div></td></tr>
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</table>The Adminshttps://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=18685&oldid=prevThe Admins at 13:27, 15 March 20232023-03-15T13:27:49Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The modern LGBT Movement has a rich history of embracing pederasts/pedophiles, providing shelter to "loved boys" and agitating for the removal of Age of Consent laws - for example, at the 1985 ILGA conference. In 2021, [[Newgon]] compiled a large article documenting numerous examples of LGBT-MAP unity, running from the 19th Century, all the way to the 1990s:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The modern LGBT Movement has a rich history of embracing pederasts/pedophiles, providing shelter to "loved boys" and agitating for the removal of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[</ins>Age of Consent<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]] </ins>laws - for example, at the 1985 ILGA conference. In 2021, [[Newgon]] compiled a large article documenting numerous examples of LGBT-MAP unity, running from the 19th Century, all the way to the 1990s:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[Historical examples of LGBT-MAP unity]]</div></td></tr>
</table>The Adminshttps://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=17462&oldid=prevThe Admins at 13:54, 19 February 20232023-02-19T13:54:04Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Contradictions of the identitarian argument==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Contradictions of the identitarian argument==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Another point here, is the lack of consistency. If [[boylove]]rs are "not homosexual" because sexuality is exclusive to gender-preference (as anti-MAPs like to claim), then heterosexual pedophiles and hebephiles can not be deemed "straight", either. We would then have to ask, ''what exactly is'' this well-documented<ref name=blanchard /> tendency of pedophiles and hebephiles to gravitate towards one or the other gender ([[Boylove|BL]]/[[Girllove|GL]]), if it is not a gender preference? It appears that the insistence upon a complete divorce of homosexual MAPs and the LGBT community, is entirely political/ideological. MAPs are already members of the community, just as they are part of mainstream society.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Another point here, is the lack of consistency. If [[boylove]]rs are "not homosexual" because sexuality is exclusive to gender-preference (as <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[</ins>anti<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]]</ins>-MAPs like to claim), then heterosexual pedophiles and hebephiles can not be deemed "straight", either. We would then have to ask, ''what exactly is'' this well-documented<ref name=blanchard /> tendency of pedophiles and hebephiles to gravitate towards one or the other gender ([[Boylove|BL]]/[[Girllove|GL]]), if it is not a gender preference? It appears that the insistence upon a complete divorce of homosexual MAPs and the LGBT community, is entirely political/ideological. MAPs are already members of the community, just as they are part of mainstream society.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The distancing of MAPs also covertly legitimizes the concept of [[chronophilia]] as a ''secondary'' spectrum of desires and identities. Age-structured relations have been present throughout the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History|entirety of human (and gay) history]], yet have now (modern LGBT people would maintain) been rightfully excluded from the category "sexualities". If age/physical development attractions are of such great operative ''importance'' re. what is considered to be a "sexuality" or otherwise, they must clearly be ''something''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The distancing of MAPs also covertly legitimizes the concept of [[chronophilia]] as a ''secondary'' spectrum of desires and identities. Age-structured relations have been present throughout the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History|entirety of human (and gay) history]], yet have now (modern LGBT people would maintain) been rightfully excluded from the category "sexualities". If age/physical development attractions are of such great operative ''importance'' re. what is considered to be a "sexuality" or otherwise, they must clearly be ''something''.</div></td></tr>
</table>The Adminshttps://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=17111&oldid=prevThe Admins: /* Queerness */2023-02-11T14:58:33Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Queerness</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[Validity Policing]] - See for quotations and rebuttals to the charge that MAPs aren't "queer".</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[Validity Policing]] - See for quotations and rebuttals to the charge that MAPs aren't "queer".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ultimately, many MAPs are unwilling to adopt LGBT identities, and the idea that they are somehow attempting to re-enter the community is no more than a common trope.<ref>[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333361120_I'm_Not_like_That_So_Am_I_Gay_The_Use_of_Queer-Spectrum_Identity_Labels_Among_Minor-Attracted_People Allyn Walker's 2022 article on MAPs and identity labels]</ref></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ultimately, many MAPs are unwilling to adopt LGBT identities, and the idea that they are somehow attempting to re-enter the community is no more than a common <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">culture-war </ins>trope.<ref>[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333361120_I'm_Not_like_That_So_Am_I_Gay_The_Use_of_Queer-Spectrum_Identity_Labels_Among_Minor-Attracted_People Allyn Walker's 2022 article on MAPs and identity labels]</ref></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==See also==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==See also==</div></td></tr>
</table>The Adminshttps://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=16191&oldid=prevThe Admins: /* Queerness */2023-01-10T10:09:04Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Queerness</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[Validity Policing]] - See for quotations and rebuttals to the charge that MAPs aren't "queer".</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[Validity Policing]] - See for quotations and rebuttals to the charge that MAPs aren't "queer".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Ultimately, many MAPs are unwilling to adopt LGBT identities, and the idea that they are somehow attempting to re-enter the community is no more than a common trope.<ref>[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333361120_I'm_Not_like_That_So_Am_I_Gay_The_Use_of_Queer-Spectrum_Identity_Labels_Among_Minor-Attracted_People Allyn Walker's 2022 article on MAPs and identity labels]</ref></ins></div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==See also==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==See also==</div></td></tr>
</table>The Adminshttps://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=14487&oldid=prevThe Admins at 22:16, 12 September 20222022-09-12T22:16:55Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==The invalidity of "validity" as an argument==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==The invalidity of "validity" as an argument==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The concept of ''valid'' and ''invalid'' sexuality is clearly chauvinistic and a questionable idea in and of itself. This strategy of "othering" and erasure appears to be a rather shameful leftist-liberal SJW rehash of 1980s respectability politics deployed by the conservative moral majority. Decades before that, the German Nazi party also ''invalidated'' pederasts; the only difference being that those boy-lovers were not the only hunted demographic. The Nazis made sure that they were joined by "normal" ''teleiophilic'' homosexuals - the sort of people who now ritualistically invalidate pederasts.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20140109235532/http://archive.guidemag.com/magcontent/invokemagcontent.cfm?ID=064C63A6-125A-11D4-A7AB00A0C9D84F02 Human Rights Wrongs, by Andriette, 1998]</ref> Nevertheless, some modern day homosexuals might tentatively agree with the Germans and maintain, in their vanity, that pedophilia and hebephilia are mental illnesses and therefore "invalid". In doing this, "liberal" gays should be congratulated on confirming that pedophiles are entitled to care, respect, protection, social interaction and "safe spaces" in which to "recover". After all, a good LGBT person with a firm understanding of their own history must surely not submit others to the ableism and carceral psychiatry that was once used against ''their own'' people.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The concept of ''valid'' and ''invalid'' sexuality is clearly chauvinistic and a questionable idea in and of itself. This strategy of "othering" and erasure appears to be a rather shameful leftist-liberal SJW rehash of 1980s respectability politics deployed by the conservative moral majority. Decades before that, the German Nazi party also <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[Historical analogies for MAPs and allies|</ins>''invalidated'' pederasts<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]]</ins>; the only difference being that those boy-lovers were not the only hunted demographic. The Nazis made sure that they were joined by "normal" ''teleiophilic'' homosexuals - the sort of people who now ritualistically invalidate pederasts.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20140109235532/http://archive.guidemag.com/magcontent/invokemagcontent.cfm?ID=064C63A6-125A-11D4-A7AB00A0C9D84F02 Human Rights Wrongs, by Andriette, 1998]</ref> Nevertheless, some modern day homosexuals might tentatively agree with the Germans and maintain, in their vanity, that pedophilia and hebephilia are mental illnesses and therefore "invalid". In doing this, "liberal" gays should be congratulated on confirming that pedophiles are entitled to care, respect, protection, social interaction and "safe spaces" in which to "recover". After all, a good LGBT person with a firm understanding of their own history must surely not submit others to the ableism and carceral psychiatry that was once used against ''their own'' people.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ultimately, we must ask: What constitutes a valid determinant of "sexuality"? Any intellectually honest, or historically literate LGBT campaigner or liberal should be able to explain this in a way that does not rely on ''normativity''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Ultimately, we must ask: What constitutes a valid determinant of "sexuality"? Any intellectually honest, or historically literate LGBT campaigner or liberal should be able to explain this in a way that does not rely on ''normativity''.</div></td></tr>
</table>The Adminshttps://www.newgon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Debate_Guide:_MAPs_are_invalid&diff=13750&oldid=prevThe Admins: /* Contradictions of the identitarian argument */2022-08-06T04:40:36Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Contradictions of the identitarian argument</span></span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 04:40, 6 August 2022</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Another point here, is the lack of consistency. If [[boylove]]rs are "not homosexual" because sexuality is exclusive to gender-preference (as anti-MAPs like to claim), then heterosexual pedophiles and hebephiles can not be deemed "straight", either. We would then have to ask, ''what exactly is'' this well-documented<ref name=blanchard /> tendency of pedophiles and hebephiles to gravitate towards one or the other gender ([[Boylove|BL]]/[[Girllove|GL]]), if it is not a gender preference? It appears that the insistence upon a complete divorce of homosexual MAPs and the LGBT community, is entirely political/ideological. MAPs are already members of the community, just as they are part of mainstream society.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Another point here, is the lack of consistency. If [[boylove]]rs are "not homosexual" because sexuality is exclusive to gender-preference (as anti-MAPs like to claim), then heterosexual pedophiles and hebephiles can not be deemed "straight", either. We would then have to ask, ''what exactly is'' this well-documented<ref name=blanchard /> tendency of pedophiles and hebephiles to gravitate towards one or the other gender ([[Boylove|BL]]/[[Girllove|GL]]), if it is not a gender preference? It appears that the insistence upon a complete divorce of homosexual MAPs and the LGBT community, is entirely political/ideological. MAPs are already members of the community, just as they are part of mainstream society.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The distancing of MAPs also covertly legitimizes the concept of [[chronophilia]] as a ''secondary'' spectrum of desires and identities. Age-structured relations have been present throughout the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History|entirety of human (and gay) history]], yet have now (modern LGBT people would maintain) been rightfully excluded from the category "sexualities". If age/physical development attractions are of such great operative ''importance'' re. what is considered to be a "sexuality" or otherwise, they must clearly be something <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">of importance</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The distancing of MAPs also covertly legitimizes the concept of [[chronophilia]] as a ''secondary'' spectrum of desires and identities. Age-structured relations have been present throughout the [[Research: Intergenerational Relationships in History|entirety of human (and gay) history]], yet have now (modern LGBT people would maintain) been rightfully excluded from the category "sexualities". If age/physical development attractions are of such great operative ''importance'' re. what is considered to be a "sexuality" or otherwise, they must clearly be <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>something<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In the above argument of LGBT "validity" proponents, it is held that if pedophiles or hebephiles of any gender preference aren't also attracted to adults, they can't be considered gay (or, as we contended straight). So, to expand on the argument's absurdity, we might ask ourselves - what if a MAP has a ''non-preferential'', secondary attraction to adults? Can they now ascend to the status of fully fledged queer, homosexual, or indeed heterosexual? What about a 13 year old boy who is attracted to other 13 year old boys? We'd have to maintain that because his psychological target is not an adult, he can not be considered "gay", does not "know himself", and should remain open-minded to the idea that he may in fact be [[pederasty|pederastically inclined]]. After all, there is [[Debate Guide: Corresponding age attraction|no solid evidence]] that these attractions will change as he ages, only prejudiced assumptions and dating norms. If LGBT "validity" identitarians were to stay true to these principles, they would have to give up their pursuit of LGBT youth organizations and policies, for example. </div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In the above argument of LGBT "validity" proponents, it is held that if pedophiles or hebephiles of any gender preference aren't also attracted to adults, they can't be considered gay (or, as we contended straight). So, to expand on the argument's absurdity, we might ask ourselves - what if a MAP has a ''non-preferential'', secondary attraction to adults? Can they now ascend to the status of fully fledged queer, homosexual, or indeed heterosexual? What about a 13 year old boy who is attracted to other 13 year old boys? We'd have to maintain that because his psychological target is not an adult, he can not be considered "gay", does not "know himself", and should remain open-minded to the idea that he may in fact be [[pederasty|pederastically inclined]]. After all, there is [[Debate Guide: Corresponding age attraction|no solid evidence]] that these attractions will change as he ages, only prejudiced assumptions and dating norms. If LGBT "validity" identitarians were to stay true to these principles, they would have to give up their pursuit of LGBT youth organizations and policies, for example. </div></td></tr>
</table>The Admins