| B. |
First I want to ask you a few questions about
your contact with Ferdinand. Then I want to ask some
questions about the photo sessions with Fred V. and last about
your experience with the police. If there are things you
cannot remember then say so. Also, if you don't want to
give an answer then feel free to say so. |
| J. |
Yes, good. |
| B. |
How did you first meet Ferdinand? |
| J. |
It was like this; I had a teacher at school who
gave lessons about how people can get on with each other, that
sort of lesson, and once I went to his house with a friend of
mine. We went to stay overnight there, and we wanted to
have some fun, to go to a movie or something like that, but he
said that he really didn't have the time for that. He had
to correct some tests and that sort of thing. But then he
said, "I know something else for you. I have a friend
who is having a birthday. We can go there for a
while." That was Stephan. So we did that and
Ferdinand was there also, and that is how I met Ferdinand for
the first time. |
| B. |
How old were you? |
| J. |
I was 12, almost 13. Three days later I was
thirteen. |
| B. |
Yes. And Stephan? |
| J. |
Stephan was 15. |
| B. |
I see, two years older. What kinds of things
did you do with Ferdinand? |
| J. |
How do you mean kinds of things? ... What we
did together in the weekends, do you mean that? |
| B. |
Yes. |
| J. |
We always went swimming in the weekend.
Sometimes we went to the movies, or we went to visit his
parents, and to birthday parties and that sort of thing.
Sometimes we also went to Centreparcs with friends for a
weekend, or to stay in a bungalow and that kind of thing.
Table tennis, and all kinds of things. |
| B. |
And in the vacations? |
| J. |
Every year I went with Ferdinand to Yugoslavia
and once to Spain in the winter with his parents. In
summer we always go to Yugoslavia and we go to the nude beaches
there. Once in winter we went to Benidorm in Spain.
We also have little excursions to bungalows and the Centreparcs
and such like. We do that on the long weekends.
Holidays in Yugoslavia, Spain and Belgium. We were not
really in Belgium on vacation but went there for excursions with
friends. We went for long weekends or for a week.
That varied. |
| B. |
Yugoslavia is more than an excursion. |
| J. |
Yes. That was for a vacation. Three
weeks long. |
| B. |
Did you go by train, by air or ... ? |
| J. |
We've been by car, by aircraft and with the
bus. We have also done other things, for example we've
been to the entertainment parks such as Duinrell and
Efteling. And we have also been go-kart racing. You
know, the tiny autos. But we didn't do that so
often. We did that a couple of times. Two or three
times or so. |
| B. |
Can you remember any more things? |
| J. |
No. Not really important things, no. |
| B. |
What are the positive aspects of your contact with
Ferdinand? |
| J. |
Positive aspects? Now ... it is so.
My parents were divorced, so I missed a father in my
family. I didn't have a father any more, and I had no
contact with him. In the beginning I did but later
not. And I was actually looking for a sort of father
figure for myself, a sort of father for me. I found that
in Ferdinand. I could always have good talks with
Ferdinand. Ferdinand was really my second father.
But not like the father type but just as a sort of father.
Someone with whom I could talk about everything. |
| B. |
Did that include talking about problems at school
and ... |
| J. |
Everything! About problems at school, at home, at
work. |
| B. |
What are the negative aspects of your contact with
Ferdinand? |
| J. |
Tss ... There aren't any. |
| B. |
There aren't any? |
| J. |
No! |
| B. |
Absolutely not? |
| J. |
No! I don't have anything negative
... Yea, look, it is of course so ... Ferdinand is a
pedophile ... and, yes. I don't want to say that that's
negative, but after all it is difficult for me because my family
doesn't know that. My mother knows it. But my family
doesn't know and so I actually have to keep it a bit hidden when
my family asks about Ferdinand or about how it is going with me
and that sort of thing. They know that Ferdinand had been
married but it is too difficult to have to explain all that. |
| B. |
So you can say that because Ferdinand is
pedophile, that that is a negative aspect? |
| J. |
No! Being pedophile itself is not a negative
aspect! But just to explain that to my family, or to keep
his orientation hidden from them. |
| B. |
What does your mother think about your contact
with Ferdinand? |
| J. |
My mother thinks that I should make my own
choice. My mother thinks that I am old enough to determine
what I want and what I don't want. My mother thought that
my contact with Ferdinand was good, but said if there were
things that I didn't like, that I should say so right
away. If, for example there was something that I did not
want, then I should say so, and if there was something which I
did want then I could say that too. But she went along
with it. She said that I was old enough and that I could
choose for myself. |
| B. |
When you were 12? |
| J. |
Yes. |
| B. |
... and did she know that he was pedophile? |
| J. |
Yes. |
| B. |
From when? |
| J. |
From a week after I met Ferdinand. One week,
two weeks ... |
| B. |
How did that come about? |
| J. |
Uh ... It was so. I had just made
contact with Ferdinand and I carne home from school and my
mother was curious about him, what kind of person he was.
She had not yet seen Ferdinand. My mother said, "What
is Ferdinand actually like?" and then I said very direct,
"Now Ferdinand is a pedophile." I just said it I
didn't stop to think that it was a taboo or such. At that
time I didn't really know very clearly what a pedophile
was. I knew naturally that he liked children and so on, so
I knew what it was actually, but I didn't know in much
detail. That is how I told her and so that is how she came
to know. In the beginning she was shocked,
naturally. You wouldn't expect that, at all. Then,
in the beginning she also said, "Now, I would prefer that
you did not go around with him any more." But I kept
complaining and winging for so long, "Yes, but I want to,
and it is so nice with him," and "I'll just go to him
anyway," and so on. Finally my mother said, "You
have to decide for yourself. You're big enough." |
| B. |
Did Ferdinand warn you not to tell people? |
| J. |
No. He didn't even know that I had told my
mother. We hadn't even talked about if he should come home
with me or something like that to meet my mother, and so on. |
| B. |
Yes. And how did you know that he was
pedophile? |
| J. |
He told me. Indeed, rather quickly. |
| B. |
And at the same time hadn't said that you should
not to tell anybody else? |
| J. |
Oh yes! He said that, but I thought "My
mother, that isn't anybody else, that's my mother. I can
tell her," I thought. |
| B. |
What do your friends at school think about your
contact with Ferdinand? |
| J. |
They don't know. |
| B. |
Nobody? |
| J. |
No, nobody. |
| B. |
What can you tell me about the photo sessions with
Fred? |
| J. |
With Fred. Now, I always found them lots of
fun. It was always cozy and friendly with Fred.
There was a nice atmosphere there and you felt free. You
could just be yourself. You could do what you
wanted. Not that you could wreck the place, but just be yourself.
I found the photos themselves always fun. But now that
I've found out what he did with them not any more, of
course. Now I regret it, obviously. |
| B. |
You regret it because of what he did with the
photos? |
| J. |
Yes. Well, yes. That was a real nasty
thing to do. I had not expected that from him at all,
because he said that they were for his own use and he said that
he would not sell them. With that he abused my trust in
him. |
| B. |
But from the making of the photographs you have no
regrets? |
| J. |
In itself, not. But now I certainly do
regret it. |
| B. |
Can you tell me about the photos? What sort
of photos were they? |
| J. |
Ah ... they weren't play photos; that I can
say. It was certainly porno. But Fred V. said that
it was for his own use, as a souvenir for later. That
later he could look at the slides, you know, that he could have
fun thinking back. But he never told us that he had gone
and sold them or that he had sent them off to America or England
or so. But they weren't ordinary play photos. They
were all naked photos in which everything was done and so
on. It was certainly child pornography. |
| B. |
Do you think the police are rightfully concerned
about those kinds of photographs? |
| J. |
Yes. It was definitely child pornography. It
was all very clear; you could see precisely what was done and
who was doing it |
| B. |
How many photographs were there? |
| J. |
I don't know exactly how many photos there were,
but I think it was a large number. |
| B. |
How did the police discover that the photos were
of you? |
| J. |
Ah ... They had found many photos at
Fred's place, and they found correspondence and so on, and when
you combine the two things you can make the connection.
That is how it went. Also, there were not so many boys
involved. In the newspaper it said that there was an
international network, a child pornography airlift to England.
But there were not so many boys involved in total. Fred
had a number of friends. Anton had some friends and
Ferdinand had some friends. |
| B. |
Were the photos made by Ferdinand and Fred? |
| J. |
No. Fred organized all kinds of excursions
and we just went with the whole group. We went for example
to a camping or to a bungalow park such as the
Kempervennen. Fred made the photos. |
| B. |
Did Fred always make photos? |
| J. |
Yes, often. Look, he did it as a sort of
game. When we went on such an excursion and Fred was
there, you could be certain that photos would be made. |
| B. |
What are the positive aspects of the photo
sessions? |
| J. |
The positive aspects ... Now, I didn't get
any money for it (laugh). Now, at the time the photos were
being made, that was fun. |
| B. |
What are the negative aspects of the photo
sessions? |
| J. |
Do you mean now, or then? |
| B. |
Then and now. |
| J. |
Then, the negative side. At that time
actually, I didn't find it negative, because I wanted to do it
and also Fred said that the photos were for his own use, for
later. We could also look at them and enjoy them.
That was fun. I thought of it as positive. I thought
it was nice of him, because I thought he would keep the photos
for himself, that he would not distribute them. And the
negative side is that he went ahead and distributed them. |
| B. |
Thus, looking back, the only negative thing is
that he distributed the photos? |
| J. |
Yes. Sold and distributed them to England,
to America, Belgium. Now, England and Belgium
certainly. America, I'm not so certain; that is what I
heard but I don't know for sure. |
| B. |
Can you tell me how the case got started with the
police? |
| J. |
It actually got started because Fred had contact
with an Englishman and sold him some slides and the Englishman
took his suitcase with the slides with him in an aircraft.
The aircraft had to make a stop on the way and the suitcase was
unloaded, was taken off the aircraft. The Englishman had
to get out at Gatwick but the suitcase had already been unloaded
in London. So the suitcase remained alone on the conveyor
going around and around, because no one had picked it up.
Then they looked in the suitcase and they found all these slides
with child pornography on them. Photographs of all the
boys, and of course I was also there. |
|
Later the Englishman was arrested. So that is how it got
rolling. And that is how they came across the name of Fred
V. He had sold the slides to the Englishman. Then
the police in the Netherlands arrested Fred. |
|
I was sitting one morning watching cable T.V. and I saw that
a case with child pornography had come to light and that a
certain F.V. had been arrested. We thought that it might
be Fred. That is, Ferdinand and I, we were watching
together. We thought that it might just by chance be
someone else, that there could be someone else with the same
initials. But later through friends I heard that it was
indeed Fred and that he had been arrested. |
|
Ferdinand knew for some time that something like that was
underway. He had a feeling that he would be arrested,
because there were slides of me and Stephan, and of Peter
also. So, he already had misgivings. One day when I
came home from school I was phoned by Ferdinand's mother who
told me that he had been arrested the night before. That
was when I heard for the first that Ferdinand had been arrested. |
| B. |
And then? |
| J. |
Now, I was shocked, of course. I realized
that photos of me had been found and the police would obviously
look further, who they all were and who was involved and the
background and so on. When I heard that from Ferdinand's
mother I was very badly shocked. I could feel it coming,
but of course I still got a shock. |
|
After that I had to wait a whole long time for a message from
Ferdinand, because I didn't know any address or anything where I
could write to him. After a time I got a letter from
Ferdinand describing the situation and what had happened, with
an address. Then I sent a letter ... no ... no letter yet
because at that time Ferdinand was still in the cell at the
police station. From there he went to the prison and that
is where I sent him the letter. And then after a while
some other boys were interrogated and they mentioned my
name. And then, if I remember it right — I'm not sure
any more — then I was telephoned by the police. They
wanted to come and talk to me at home. And so that was my
first contact with the police. |
| B. |
So the first contact with the police was at
home. Can you tell me how that went? |
| J. |
Emm ... We had made an appointment for when
they would come and exactly at the time they appeared at the
door. At first we just sat in the lounge talking,
ordinary, you know. After a while they said, "Johnny,
we want to talk to you privately?" and I said, "Ok,
that's fine." I could feel it coming on, that they
wanted to talk to me about the whole situation. We went to
my room and they began to put questions to me, such as,
"How did you meet Ferdinand?" and "What do you
think of Ferdinand?" and "Did you know that he is a pedophile?"
and so on. And I just gave straight answers to that.
And then they went further into the details, with other
questions, such as, "have you had sex with so and so?"
and so on. I didn't give any answers. I said to myself,
"if I talk, then I can make trouble for other people, if I
say the wrong things, if I say nothing then no one can get into
trouble." That is what I thought. |
|
I had been able to think it over. I knew that the
police would also be coming to see me, that I would also be
interrogated, over what had happened and what I had experienced
and so on. Of course, I had thought it through, about what
I should tell them. If I didn't tell them anything then I
wouldn't have to explain anything and I wouldn't trigger
anything off. By saying nothing I wouldn't disadvantage
any one else. I couldn't do any good, but then I also
couldn't do any harm. |
|
At first they started kidding, such as, "What is your
name? What is your sister called? How is it going at
school? And how I had met Ferdinand and all kinds of
things about myself and gradually they went a little to the
point. First in the lounge with my mother there. And
they asked what I thought of Ferdinand. |
| B. |
What was your answer? |
| J. |
I told them that he was a nice man, someone I can
get on with, and in the period after my parents were divorced he
had become a sort of second father. I told them that I
spent each weekend with him and that I phoned him also every
Thursday, and that we went somewhere every weekend. And
they asked if I knew that Ferdinand was a pedophile, and I knew
that so I told them so. And they also asked my mother
that, and they asked her what she thought of it. |
| B. |
What did your mother think? |
| J. |
Yea, my mother knew, I've already told you.
She said herself, "Now, look here, Johnny is old
enough. He can decide for himself if he wants that or
not." That's just how my mother is. My mother
doesn't make a problem out of it. |
|
In my room they went over to questions about Ferdinand and
put questions like, "Do you sleep in bed with Ferdinand in
his home?" and, "Do you sleep naked with him?"
and "Does Ferdinand force you to do things?" and,
"Have you ever had to do something with Ferdinand which you
really didn't want?" and so on. And I gave then
absolutely no answer. Then they showed me photographs of
people and asked if I knew them, and if I had been there.
And I gave them absolutely no answer to that also. I just
said nothing. I just took care of myself and said nothing,
just as if I had clammed up or so. And of course that was
also true, since I was of course shocked. I didn't know
what could happen. |
| B. |
So. The first time you didn't say
much. Was there another time? |
| J. |
The police came back. When they went away
the first time they said, "We are going to come back when
it's going better with Johnny and when he has forgotten it a
little. Because they thought that I was all emotional and
clammed up, and that was actually so because I was shocked that
Ferdinand had been arrested, of course. But I had held my
mouth shut! And after a time they phoned up and ... Ah ...
I'm not sure any more ... An yes, they wanted to know if I would
go to the police station, I think, if I would go there to the
police station in Utrecht to be questioned. So, not at
home. And then that is what happened. Before that
they had said, "Johnny, if you don't talk again we can go
to the judge and we can make sure that you talk." I
heard that real good. |
| B. |
How and where had they said that? |
| J. |
Telephone. |
| B. |
So your second contact with the police was by
telephone. |
| J. |
Yes. They asked if I would come to the
bureau and they also said, "We can make you
talk." After the first time they knew that I didn't
want to say anything. I had said, "I have nothing to
say and I also don't want to say anything." So they
knew that. But they said, "Look, Johnny, if you don't
talk we can go to the commissioner of the court and we can force
you to talk because you're actually a sort of
witness." They also said, "We can come and get
you at school." That would really set me up for
trouble. That would cause all sorts of problems at
school. Those two-faced bastards. Those are the
kinds of things they did to force me to talk. Look, what
they meant was, if you don't do it nicely then we can come and
get you from school, you know, and then you'll really look like
a dick head at school. |
| B. |
If they did that at school what would have happened? |
| J. |
Big problems. That's for sure. Then I
might as well emigrate, I think. My reputation ...
Look, if the police came and got me from school in a squad car
with officers in their uniforms then they would all know why at
school. |
| B. |
How would they know? You could say something
such as, "It's none of your business," or, "I was
a witness and they wanted to have a statement," or
something like that? |
| J. |
Yes ... but, the director would know. Don't
forget at that time the papers were bursting with articles about
the child pornography affair with my full first name, Johnny
K. I was in the Telegraaf with my name, that I was
involved in the whole affair. There are other Johnny Ks in
the Netherlands, or in Amsterdam, so that was in itself not such
a great problem at school. But if two officers should have
come to the school then the others would have stared thinking,
Yea, Johnny K., and they would make the connection. I just
didn't want them at school to know that I go about with a
pedophile. Look, I can explain it to my mother but I can't
just go on to the Dam Square and announce it. |
| B. |
Now, the third time? Did you talk again with
the police? |
|
The third time was, therefore, when I came to the
police station and they wanted to have more details from
me. They came and picked me up and we went to the
station. They tried to put me at ease, you know, fast
driving in the car, driving 160 (km/h), having a bit of fun. |
| B. |
With a siren? |
| J. |
No, it wasn't a police car, an ordinary private
car. So the police also don't keep to the law
(laughs). At the police station we first went to eat in
the police canteen. Then we went behind to the division of
the child protection squad or something, and we went into a little
cell, and there was a table and a chair and even a typing
machine, and that is where I was interrogated. They started
by asking for more details. No longer, "How did you
meet Ferdinand?" They meant business, things like,
"Did you go to Kempervennen?" and "What did you
do there?" and "Who have you had sex with?" and
"When were the photos made?" and that sort of
thing. There were five officers who came to talk,
altogether. I was not at all at ease. You sit there
in the little cell just as if you had raped someone. A
bare little cell with gouges in the wall from some mad man or
other, and there you sit on your chair and questions are fired
at you and you must give an answer. I sat there really trembling. |
| B. |
Did you have further contact with the police? |
| J. |
Yes, lots. Oh, do you mean for myself, for
theft of breaking in or that sort of thing? Do you mean
that? |
| B. |
Did you? |
| J. |
No! Only for this case. I had a
fourth contact. By the third time they had not got me to
talk enough. They wanted more from me so I was brought
again to the police station, and we talked further. Again
the same, but longer and more details. Then there was a
fifth and last contact, even more extensive and then the
rounding off. |
| B. |
What do you mean with "rounding off"? |
| J. |
Just that they were finished with me. That
they didn't have to know anything more from me. That's
what they said. |
| B. |
What are the positive aspects of your contact with
the police? |
| J. |
Positive aspects? None! |
| B. |
None? |
| J. |
Nah! |
| B. |
What are the negative aspects of your contact with
the police? |
| J. |
Everything! Everything! The
interrogations! The police at the door!
Everything! There you sit for three hours on a little
stool in that interrogation cell. Bare walls, table,
chair, and a typing machine. Looking back I think it was
just a whole blown up load of shit. Underhand load of
shit, that's what I think. It was horrible. They
pry, they trick you. In that kind of interrogation you are
just manipulated. |
|
Before they had interrogated me, they had also interrogated
other boys and they had mentioned my name and already said what
I had done and what I hadn't done. So they already knew
the facts, but they wanted to hear it from me. So they
went ahead and interrogated me. I just couldn't
escape. If they asked, "Have you been to
Centreparcs?" and I said "No," then they would
show me a statement from one or other of the boys who had said,
"Yes, Johnny and Ferdinand were also there in that Sport
House Centre." And then I couldn't very well say that
I wasn't there, you know. I just couldn't escape.
There was absolutely nothing I could do. |
|
It was really underhand, really. It was a sort of
psychological warfare. I was forced to betray my friend,
whether I wanted to or not. They had done it by coming in
through the back door, via other people. Look, it was so,
they asked other people about me and the other people said,
"Johnny was with us at Kempervennen." Now, if
three or four other boys have already said that and then they go
and ask me if I had also been in the Kempervennen, then what can
I do. They just force you to say it yourself, that you
were also there. |
| B. |
You are very negative about the police. But
they are the child protection police. They are there for
your interests. |
| J. |
That might be so, but I think that they only drove
me crazy. I had to be interrogated four times, while from
the first time I didn't want to say anything! |
| B. |
What did your mother think about it? |
| J. |
Ah. My mother had a separate interview with
the police. I wasn't there myself, but I heard about what
she told them. They asked my mother what she thought about
the fact that I was going around with Ferdinand, and if she knew
that Ferdinand was pedophile, but they didn't ask her any
details. They only questioned her superficially. |
| B. |
Why did you go ahead with writing letters and
phoning Ferdinand while he was in jail? |
| J. |
Because he is my friend and a very good one at
that and you don't abandon someone just like that. Some
people said, "Now he's in jail, it's over with."
But that's not what I thought. So that is why I sent him
lots of letters and also phoned him up and also visited him in
jail. |
| B. |
So there are three things: letters, telephone
calls and also visits to the jail. How have you been able
to continue your friendship with Ferdinand after his release? |
| J. |
How do you mean? Just the same.
Nothing changed. The contact has only become stronger,
including the sexual contact. Because Ferdinand knew that
I hadn't deserted him. Because Ferdinand has real value
for me and I for him. Therefore it only became stronger. |
| B. |
How did it go during the first few weeks that
Ferdinand was free? |
| J. |
Now Ferdinand was obviously a little disoriented
because he was free at last and he could do anything he
wanted. I mean ordinary things. He had a
probationary period of two months. But he had to get used
to his freedom. |
| B. |
Did you find you had to get accustomed to each
other? |
| J. |
No! We didn't have to get accustomed to each
other. I knew him already! |
| B. |
Has your relationship with Ferdinand changed since
his release? |
| J. |
Yes, I think so. It has become stronger. |
| B. |
Has your contact with the police changed your
ideas about them? |
| J. |
Yes. Seriously. |
| B. |
In what way? |
| J. |
Their approach. How they approached the
whole thing, underhand sons of bitches. Their whole
approach was filthy, you couldn't call it anything else. |